I'm a Christian, and am not embarrassed to admit it. I'm embarrassed by these assholes, though. (Atheists often think that Christian == fundamentalist, which simply isn't true.)
I'm not sure it's more logical to say that the universe created itself than it was created by someone, but to each his own, I guess.
I actually saw them today at the con, holding up a Jesus Is Lord sign, as a bunch of cosplaying executioners paraded around. I didn't know it was the Westborough asshats, or I'd have had words with them,
And you also get upset when theists call you asshats, am I right? (Do you never wonder why?)
Honestly, I think the arguments for the existence of God are more compelling than the opposite, but doing your dickwad atheist bit isn't a good counterargument.
Dawkins has made being-an-asshole-to-theists his raison d'etre, but it neither makes him right, nor even sound particularly smart. His arguments are laughably bad when he strays outside the area he knows (evo
What if there were a single cause for many of the world's ills in both the social and personal spheres, from overpopulation, ecological destruction, ethnic violence and hatred, to addictions, conflicts between the sexes, the breakdown of the family, and even why it feels good to be bad? Sound too simplistic or far-fetched? A core underlying cause of all these problems is hidden authoritarianism. Buying into, communism, spiritual cults, organized religion, UFO cults, therapy cults, Jim Jones, David Koresh, Hi
> Buying into any religion does away with trust in your own mind and does away with uncorrupted critical thinking.
I would challenge that. It may be true if you buy into the religion blindly which, of course, many do. But a number of intellectuals, by applying critical thinking, have come to the conclusion that the God of the Bible really does exist. CS Lewis is an obvious example.
I believe that is the case for me. I like to think, and my thinking has led me to the conclusion that there must be someth
On the matter of the Bible and "critical thinking" I must point out that, at least for the unbeliever, the two will contradict. It is not with the mind that a person believes, but with the heart. In fact, it is to them foolishness:
I Chorinthians 1:21-23 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe. For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom: But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;
Yes, homosexuals are wrong, as well as everybody else until they accept God's free gift. God loves them. While the church should draw a straight line to show wrong from right, it should only be confrontational against those claiming to be Christians and perverting the Bible. There
Yeah, good point. To our atheist colleagues here, who pride themselves in their thinking prowess, preaching Christ is indeed foolishness. It goes against everything they assume and believe to be true, and against common sense. How *could* it possibly be true?
Yet if it *is* true, then evidence, logic, and reason will ultimately reveal that if you dig deep enough. And I think that is precisely the case with Christ. There is plenty of historical evidence for His existence and crucifixion (virtually every ser
There is plenty of historical evidence for His existence and crucifixion (virtually every serious scholar will admit that)
No, actually, there isn't. Aside from the bible itself -- which is self-referential, similar to trying to use a Tom Clancy book to prove the existence of his character Jack Ryan -- there is exactly zero contemporaneous evidence that in any way backs up the claim that Christ existed.
There's another problem with the bible, and that is that it contains much that disqualifies it round
If Jesus was not really historical, why is it that every major religion acknowledges his existence, in spite of the fact they believe the others to be heresy? I would think Muslims would be champing at the bit to deny Christ and hence, Christianity, but they don't. Instead, they argue the finer points of the Crucifixion, etc... If Jesus never existed, why can't the billion+ Muslims figure this out? They'd love more than anyone else to discredit all of Christianity, yet do not deny Christ's
I would think Muslims would be champing at the bit to deny Christ and hence, Christianity, but they don't.
That's because you're ignorant (I'm using the word literally here, not as an insult -- there are things you are unaware of.) Muslims worship the same god; they consider Jesus one of their prophets. They just think Christians worship incorrectly (exactly the same complaint many Christians make of each other.)
Calling the Bible stories fiction is really a stretch, especially in light of the fact th
If your standard for finding something untrue is that you haven't personally seen it, your understanding of the world will be very limited indeed. If anyone could turn water into wine, Jesus would probably be regarded as just another preacher. The fact that we can't, and that no one has been able to reproduce this feat, is evidence that He was God. But you seem to regard this as evidence the story isn't true. I'm curious, by what leap of logic are you able to state something untrue? Can you prove it f
If anyone could turn water into wine, Jesus would probably be regarded as just another preacher. The fact that we can't, and that no one has been able to reproduce this feat, is evidence that He was God.
"If we are to suppose a miracle to be something so entirely out of the course of what is called nature, that she must go out of that course to accomplish it, and we see an account given of such miracle by the person who said he saw it, it raises a question in the mind very easily decided, which is, is it mo
And yet it is when nature does go out of her course, i.e., does something theory doesn't predict, that both science and religion are enlightened. Had Tycho Brahe adjusted his measurements of the heavens to fit with the Greek theories of epicycles - so as not to be thought a liar - we'd still believe the Earth the center of the Universe.
But of more interest: having personally observed miracles myself, I don't have the luxury of writing off someone else as a liar. To Christians, the Bible stories are onl
But of more interest: having personally observed miracles myself, I don't have the luxury of writing off someone else as a liar.
Really? You personally witnessed miracles?
Were these honest-to-God break-the-laws-of-physics no-way-this-could-happen-naturally miracles, or just things that happened to work out for the best against the odds?
When I was child, I would take two strips of metal I'd found on the road, stick them in the electrical outlet, and hold on to each with one hand. By some yet unexplained reason, I was never electrocuted, yet my brother managed to get shocked pulling a out a plug.
Years later in my high school electronics class, we passed around a transformer - 12v to 120v - with a 9v battery and had "fun" shocking ourselves by holding the high voltage leads in each hand and touching the battery to the 12v side. Which pr
I'd consider saving the life of someone more important, but consider a direct contravention of the laws of physics to be a more compelling argument. Incidentally, I do know someone who recovered from a coma after we prayed for her, after the doctors had assured the family there was nothing more they could do, and they should be prepared for her death.
But there's always the contingent of people willing to assert that, "She would have recovered anyway..." and maybe they're right. I don't have the requisit
by Anonymous Coward writes:
on Tuesday July 27, 2010 @07:07PM (#33051760)
But anyone making an argument against miracles because of the "probability that the man is lying" would have to concede that the probability of miraculous interference in this case outweighs the probability of natural recovery.
Not really. I don't consider the odd improbable occurrence to be a miracle, no matter what the odds. Anyone who has studied probability knows that vastly improbable events happen every day.
Now, if a HUGE number of people in comas suddenly came out of them against the odds (say 50%) that would be a more convincing "miracle" - but still in no way contravening the laws of physics. Each individual recovery is still physically possible.
Actually I was expecting you to come back with some sort of conjuring tricks that took you in, but all you have to do is read some James Randi to know how easy those are to fake!
No, in this case I'll side with Paine. Nobody "in our time" has seen nature go out of its course, which is to say, there is a LOT of testimony that it has, and never any indisputable evidence.
Still doing that? (Score:0, Troll)
Re: (Score:5, Interesting)
I'm a Christian, and am not embarrassed to admit it. I'm embarrassed by these assholes, though. (Atheists often think that Christian == fundamentalist, which simply isn't true.)
I'm not sure it's more logical to say that the universe created itself than it was created by someone, but to each his own, I guess.
I actually saw them today at the con, holding up a Jesus Is Lord sign, as a bunch of cosplaying executioners paraded around. I didn't know it was the Westborough asshats, or I'd have had words with them,
Re: (Score:-1, Flamebait)
No, no, we do not think all of you are fundamentalists, However, we do think you are all delusional.
Re: (Score:4, Insightful)
>>However, we do think you are all delusional.
And you also get upset when theists call you asshats, am I right? (Do you never wonder why?)
Honestly, I think the arguments for the existence of God are more compelling than the opposite, but doing your dickwad atheist bit isn't a good counterargument.
Dawkins has made being-an-asshole-to-theists his raison d'etre, but it neither makes him right, nor even sound particularly smart. His arguments are laughably bad when he strays outside the area he knows (evo
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
What if there were a single cause for many of the world's ills in both the social and personal spheres, from overpopulation, ecological destruction, ethnic violence and hatred, to addictions, conflicts between the sexes, the breakdown of the family, and even why it feels good to be bad? Sound too simplistic or far-fetched? A core underlying cause of all these problems is hidden authoritarianism.
Buying into, communism, spiritual cults, organized religion, UFO cults, therapy cults, Jim Jones, David Koresh, Hi
Re: (Score:2, Informative)
> Buying into any religion does away with trust in your own mind and does away with uncorrupted critical thinking.
I would challenge that. It may be true if you buy into the religion blindly which, of course, many do. But a number of intellectuals, by applying critical thinking, have come to the conclusion that the God of the Bible really does exist. CS Lewis is an obvious example.
I believe that is the case for me. I like to think, and my thinking has led me to the conclusion that there must be someth
Re: (Score:1)
On the matter of the Bible and "critical thinking" I must point out that, at least for the unbeliever, the two will contradict. It is not with the mind that a person believes, but with the heart. In fact, it is to them foolishness:
I Chorinthians 1:21-23 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe. For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom: But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;
Yes, homosexuals are wrong, as well as everybody else until they accept God's free gift. God loves them. While the church should draw a straight line to show wrong from right, it should only be confrontational against those claiming to be Christians and perverting the Bible. There
Re: (Score:2)
Yeah, good point. To our atheist colleagues here, who pride themselves in their thinking prowess, preaching Christ is indeed foolishness. It goes against everything they assume and believe to be true, and against common sense. How *could* it possibly be true?
Yet if it *is* true, then evidence, logic, and reason will ultimately reveal that if you dig deep enough. And I think that is precisely the case with Christ. There is plenty of historical evidence for His existence and crucifixion (virtually every ser
Bogus claim (Score:2)
No, actually, there isn't. Aside from the bible itself -- which is self-referential, similar to trying to use a Tom Clancy book to prove the existence of his character Jack Ryan -- there is exactly zero contemporaneous evidence that in any way backs up the claim that Christ existed.
There's another problem with the bible, and that is that it contains much that disqualifies it round
Re: (Score:2)
Two points:
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
That's because you're ignorant (I'm using the word literally here, not as an insult -- there are things you are unaware of.) Muslims worship the same god; they consider Jesus one of their prophets. They just think Christians worship incorrectly (exactly the same complaint many Christians make of each other.)
Re: (Score:2)
If your standard for finding something untrue is that you haven't personally seen it, your understanding of the world will be very limited indeed. If anyone could turn water into wine, Jesus would probably be regarded as just another preacher. The fact that we can't, and that no one has been able to reproduce this feat, is evidence that He was God. But you seem to regard this as evidence the story isn't true. I'm curious, by what leap of logic are you able to state something untrue? Can you prove it f
Re: (Score:0)
"If we are to suppose a miracle to be something so entirely out of the course of what is called nature, that she must go out of that course to accomplish it, and we see an account given of such miracle by the person who said he saw it, it raises a question in the mind very easily decided, which is, is it mo
Re: (Score:2)
And yet it is when nature does go out of her course, i.e., does something theory doesn't predict, that both science and religion are enlightened. Had Tycho Brahe adjusted his measurements of the heavens to fit with the Greek theories of epicycles - so as not to be thought a liar - we'd still believe the Earth the center of the Universe.
But of more interest: having personally observed miracles myself, I don't have the luxury of writing off someone else as a liar. To Christians, the Bible stories are onl
Re: (Score:0)
Really? You personally witnessed miracles?
Were these honest-to-God break-the-laws-of-physics no-way-this-could-happen-naturally miracles, or just things that happened to work out for the best against the odds?
Re: (Score:2)
When I was child, I would take two strips of metal I'd found on the road, stick them in the electrical outlet, and hold on to each with one hand. By some yet unexplained reason, I was never electrocuted, yet my brother managed to get shocked pulling a out a plug.
Years later in my high school electronics class, we passed around a transformer - 12v to 120v - with a 9v battery and had "fun" shocking ourselves by holding the high voltage leads in each hand and touching the battery to the 12v side. Which pr
Re: (Score:0)
Uh huh. That's not exactly water-into-wine level stuff, is it?
But if you want to consider your good luck as a suspension of the laws of physics, more power to you. Just don't ask the rest of us to buy into it.
Re: (Score:2)
I'd consider saving the life of someone more important, but consider a direct contravention of the laws of physics to be a more compelling argument. Incidentally, I do know someone who recovered from a coma after we prayed for her, after the doctors had assured the family there was nothing more they could do, and they should be prepared for her death.
But there's always the contingent of people willing to assert that, "She would have recovered anyway..." and maybe they're right. I don't have the requisit
Re:Bogus claim (Score:0)
Not really. I don't consider the odd improbable occurrence to be a miracle, no matter what the odds. Anyone who has studied probability knows that vastly improbable events happen every day.
Now, if a HUGE number of people in comas suddenly came out of them against the odds (say 50%) that would be a more convincing "miracle" - but still in no way contravening the laws of physics. Each individual recovery is still physically possible.
Actually I was expecting you to come back with some sort of conjuring tricks that took you in, but all you have to do is read some James Randi to know how easy those are to fake!
No, in this case I'll side with Paine. Nobody "in our time" has seen nature go out of its course, which is to say, there is a LOT of testimony that it has, and never any indisputable evidence.