by Anonymous Coward writes:
on Monday May 18, 2009 @02:57PM (#28001171)
I'm so tired of taking over sites where the former "developer" used a Drupal or Joomla installation.
It is inevitable that the requirements of a custom web app will eventually exceed the capability of these systems. Knowledge of a particular CMS does not a developer make! These are tools in a toolbox and should be used as such. I hate it when people sell themselves as freelance "programmers", but really they only know how to use a particular CMS. So lets write a book and encourage this behavior - bluagh..
--that's my 2 cents, but then again, I'm just an anonymous coward:-)
I installed a Joomla site for a latino non-profit in Baltimore who's previous site was a mess. It was a mess because my "predecessor" threw a bunch of random things together (directory using a database and articles in plain html only) and those who run the charity don't know anything about web design at all. I came in and installed Joomla and designed a few things to work in that installation because it is easy for someone to use AFTER I step away.
If your argument is that Joomla and Drupal have no place because web apps will outpace their development then why is the Joomla extension repository so extensive and growing? For every new app or site that comes along someone will develop a module or plugin for the CMS's because a CMS is easier to handle for a business that doesn't conduct even 50% of it's business online and so there will be a market for easy to use plugins.
If your main argument is your other one: freelancers who install a CMS and call themselves programmers are frauds then I can't really argue with you. For someone to call themselves a developer or programmer simply because they've installed a CMS is silly, but there are plenty of us who are programmers of one type or another that still use a CMS because there is no need to completely redesign the wheel every year. I'm all for people learning to write code, but if everyone wrote code then my abilities would be worthless...
All I'm saying is that the capability threshold of any CMS is irrelevant in terms of web applications because anything can be branded obsolete by anything else at any time (see Wolfram|Alpha [wolframalpha.com] vs. Google [google.com]); and while installing or administrating a CMS doesn't make you a developer on its own, plenty of us developers give a CMS it's value and that's what this book is pointing out!
I'm all for people learning to write code, but if everyone wrote code then my abilities would be worthless...
Well, everyone (practically) drives nowadays, but that doesn't mean YOUR ability to drive is worthless. And there's still a need for people like bus drivers, taxi drivers, etc.
I don't think that analogy works exactly...what I was saying is that coding, unlike driving, is more specialized. It would not be beneficial for everyone in society to take the time to learn PHP or Java, however it would benefit everyone to know how to transport themselves great distances in a small amount of time. It would not benefit anyone for everyone to learn how to code, it would only cheapen it all.
Also drivers did get paid well until driving was common...and I don't mean to sound elitist but softw
The more mature CMSs (such as those you mentionned, Alfresco, Sharepoint, etc) can be extended programmatically to do pretty much anything and everything, so its just a foundation. Unlike prebaked web packages of old, where if you hit the limit, you were screwed, these are just a starting point that can be extended indefinately. Usually they're selected by the developers once the requirements are excessive to begin with:)
Ah the ever popular Request for Citation, the easy but ultimately ineffective method of deflecting anecdote.
What, do you expect someone to have some case study that considers which percentage of all websites ever created outgrow their CMS? Argh, as if! Anecdote is the best you'll get in this type of discussion. Guess what? IT pros get paid based on their knowledge of anecdote; it's called experience.
I agree with OP. Many of these CMS have fairly limited use cases. As soon as you outgrow that you have to hack its core, which often produces less-then-stellar results. Then you have to learn the (in the case of Drupal) byzantine and poorly documented API.
Use Drupal if you want a blog or some kind of a news site where content is published for people to read and comment on. If you want something more, then creating software to fit your need IS NOT reinventing the wheel. It's building for your particular use case. Don't use a hammer when you need a sawzall.
If you want a skyscraper you wouldn't make the mistake of piling prefab houses on top of one another to reach the desired height (after all, the walls are built! Why, it'd be reinventing the wheel to build walls!) If you want an eCommerce site or some other relatively complex or specialized app, then don't make the mistake using an overgrown blog site. The time you save doing things that *are* wheel reinvention (authentication, user profile, other plumbing functions) will be lost when you need to kludge something together to stay withing the framework and still fit your needs, and then have to support said kludge.
Then you have to learn the (in the case of Drupal) byzantine and poorly documented API.
This is where I stopped using Drupal.
Well, sort-of. I also had a GPL issue where I had to keep arms-length from a proprietary system in order to integrate with a Drupal system, but mainly it was trying to make Drupal scale. I don't mean scale in the sense of multiple servers, but "scale" in the sense of keeping track of a system of sufficient size. At some point you've got dozens and dozens of modules of varying quality
I agree with OP. Many of these CMS have fairly limited use cases. As soon as you outgrow that you have to hack its core
Or write a module that has the functionality you're looking for. It's not that much harder than writing it for your homebrew web app, plus other people will be able to benefit from what you've developed afterwards.
Tired of crappy CMS' (Score:4, Interesting)
I'm so tired of taking over sites where the former "developer" used a Drupal or Joomla installation.
It is inevitable that the requirements of a custom web app will eventually exceed the capability of these systems. Knowledge of a particular CMS does not a developer make! These are tools in a toolbox and should be used as such. I hate it when people sell themselves as freelance "programmers", but really they only know how to use a particular CMS. So lets write a book and encourage this behavior - bluagh..
--that's my 2 cents, but then again, I'm just an anonymous coward :-)
Re: (Score:-1, Troll)
I don't use CMSes for the same reason. I write my own to suit the specific needs of the project I'm working on, and add capability later on.
Re: (Score:1, Troll)
I don't use CMSes for the same reason. I write my own...
I'm sure the hackers love you...
Re: (Score:0)
Re:Tired of crappy CMS' (Score:5, Insightful)
I installed a Joomla site for a latino non-profit in Baltimore who's previous site was a mess. It was a mess because my "predecessor" threw a bunch of random things together (directory using a database and articles in plain html only) and those who run the charity don't know anything about web design at all. I came in and installed Joomla and designed a few things to work in that installation because it is easy for someone to use AFTER I step away.
If your argument is that Joomla and Drupal have no place because web apps will outpace their development then why is the Joomla extension repository so extensive and growing? For every new app or site that comes along someone will develop a module or plugin for the CMS's because a CMS is easier to handle for a business that doesn't conduct even 50% of it's business online and so there will be a market for easy to use plugins.
If your main argument is your other one: freelancers who install a CMS and call themselves programmers are frauds then I can't really argue with you. For someone to call themselves a developer or programmer simply because they've installed a CMS is silly, but there are plenty of us who are programmers of one type or another that still use a CMS because there is no need to completely redesign the wheel every year. I'm all for people learning to write code, but if everyone wrote code then my abilities would be worthless...
All I'm saying is that the capability threshold of any CMS is irrelevant in terms of web applications because anything can be branded obsolete by anything else at any time (see Wolfram|Alpha [wolframalpha.com] vs. Google [google.com]); and while installing or administrating a CMS doesn't make you a developer on its own, plenty of us developers give a CMS it's value and that's what this book is pointing out!
Re: (Score:2)
I'm all for people learning to write code, but if everyone wrote code then my abilities would be worthless...
Well, everyone (practically) drives nowadays, but that doesn't mean YOUR ability to drive is worthless. And there's still a need for people like bus drivers, taxi drivers, etc.
Re: (Score:1)
I don't think that analogy works exactly...what I was saying is that coding, unlike driving, is more specialized. It would not be beneficial for everyone in society to take the time to learn PHP or Java, however it would benefit everyone to know how to transport themselves great distances in a small amount of time. It would not benefit anyone for everyone to learn how to code, it would only cheapen it all.
Also drivers did get paid well until driving was common...and I don't mean to sound elitist but softw
Re: (Score:0)
...and people call themselves 'programmers' when they don't know the first thing about the width of an accumulator and how it affects your software.
I've learnt to live with the fact that people who only do websites call themselves a developer.
Re: (Score:2)
The more mature CMSs (such as those you mentionned, Alfresco, Sharepoint, etc) can be extended programmatically to do pretty much anything and everything, so its just a foundation. Unlike prebaked web packages of old, where if you hit the limit, you were screwed, these are just a starting point that can be extended indefinately. Usually they're selected by the developers once the requirements are excessive to begin with :)
Re: (Score:2)
It is inevitable that the requirements of a custom web app will eventually exceed the capability of these systems.
Citation? What percentage of these systems outgrow their CMS? I'm not much of a programmer but even I've extended drupal.
Re:Tired of crappy CMS' (Score:4, Insightful)
Ah the ever popular Request for Citation, the easy but ultimately ineffective method of deflecting anecdote.
What, do you expect someone to have some case study that considers which percentage of all websites ever created outgrow their CMS? Argh, as if! Anecdote is the best you'll get in this type of discussion. Guess what? IT pros get paid based on their knowledge of anecdote; it's called experience.
I agree with OP. Many of these CMS have fairly limited use cases. As soon as you outgrow that you have to hack its core, which often produces less-then-stellar results. Then you have to learn the (in the case of Drupal) byzantine and poorly documented API.
Use Drupal if you want a blog or some kind of a news site where content is published for people to read and comment on. If you want something more, then creating software to fit your need IS NOT reinventing the wheel. It's building for your particular use case. Don't use a hammer when you need a sawzall.
If you want a skyscraper you wouldn't make the mistake of piling prefab houses on top of one another to reach the desired height (after all, the walls are built! Why, it'd be reinventing the wheel to build walls!) If you want an eCommerce site or some other relatively complex or specialized app, then don't make the mistake using an overgrown blog site. The time you save doing things that *are* wheel reinvention (authentication, user profile, other plumbing functions) will be lost when you need to kludge something together to stay withing the framework and still fit your needs, and then have to support said kludge.
Re: (Score:2)
This is where I stopped using Drupal.
Well, sort-of. I also had a GPL issue where I had to keep arms-length from a proprietary system in order to integrate with a Drupal system, but mainly it was trying to make Drupal scale. I don't mean scale in the sense of multiple servers, but "scale" in the sense of keeping track of a system of sufficient size. At some point you've got dozens and dozens of modules of varying quality
Re: (Score:1)
I agree with OP. Many of these CMS have fairly limited use cases. As soon as you outgrow that you have to hack its core
Or write a module that has the functionality you're looking for. It's not that much harder than writing it for your homebrew web app, plus other people will be able to benefit from what you've developed afterwards.
Re: (Score:0)
There is no anecdote here, just a blanket statement with absolutely nothing to back it up. Not one single anecdotal example.